IDempiere/FullMeeting20130306

⇐ Table of Contents | Full Meeting Minutes | Full Meeting 2013-03-06

CarlosRuiz: Good Morning
JanThielemann: hi Carlos
tbayen: Daarestiet
nmicoud: Bonjour
JanThielemann: i saw that there isnt any factory for Lookup, is it ok if i implement one?
JanThielemann: because i realy need it :P
PedroRozo: Good Morning Everyone ....
PedroRozo: it is good to be back with the community after a long period
CarlosRuiz: lookup factory? I think there is one
CarlosRuiz: Hi PedroRozo
JanThielemann: really ? i didn't see one
JanThielemann: if you take a look at GridField.java > loadLookup() all lookups are hard coded
a42niem: hi all
PedroRozo: before you guys move to the usual technical topics, just want to invite you to check our recent release of smartpos 1.3 (advanced pos integration with adempiere and soon (next release 2.0) with Idempiere) -http://sourceforge.net/projects/smart-pos/
CarlosRuiz: Hi Dirk
PedroRozo: BTW: Within today´s agenda is it possiblle to know how are the things going with the upcoming Idempeire conference ? are the dates confirmed, , .. and so on ?
JanThielemann: yesterday tbayen said that the location is booked
JanThielemann: the location is http://www.diekulisse.eu/ and the dates are 6th May till 21st May, correct me if am wrong tbayen
tbayen: Since some days everything is fixed. I had a problem with the location but I found a very nice alternative in "Die Kulisse" in Krefeld.
tbayen: All informations at the webpage are fixed. Please register there if you want to participate, hold speeches, hear other speakers and please spread the word!
hengsin: hi Jan, what do you means by factory for lookup ?
tbayen: See http://wiki.idempiere.org/en/IDempiere_World_Conference
JanThielemann: see, in my plugin i have a new editor which works fine with the IEditorFactory component
JanThielemann: but my editor uses a custom lookup
JanThielemann: if i would want to use it i had to hard code my lookup into GridField.java
JanThielemann: i would make a ILookupFactory and DefaultLookupFactory like the editor factory so i don't have to touch GridField
JanThielemann: i think this won't be to dificult
hengsin: a lookup that's not using info or reference list ?
hengsin: there's a mlookupfactory in current code but no interface and pluggability.
hengsin: Jan, your lookup factory suggestion above sounds good.
Deepak: I am agree with Hengsin. It is good to have Lookup Factory. I come across needs in web service plugin too as we have to override some of lookup behavior
JanThielemann: I'll create a ticket and create a patch, then you can review my work. ok?
hengsin: yeah, that's fine
PedroRozo: quick question .. is there any summary of which OSGI features are we really using with Idempiere .. I am starting to analyze code and getting familiar with the new inetgration approach for extension, so I want to know what are the OSGI guidelines for newcomers ... from the dev/architecture team ...
hengsin: http://jira.idempiere.com/browse/IDEMPIERE-359 - see the last comments
hengsin: we are using OSGi dynamic service or more commonly known as OSGi service component
hengsin: all singleton services/factory is implemented as OSGi service. Equinox extension is used for those throw-away instance kind of object, i.e you create a new instance everytime you want to look for it, for e.g, a UI Form instance, a process instance, etc
PedroRozo: thanks hengsin, do you guys plan to use the persistence, configuration , transaction or any other OSGi services to replace the current layers ? what about the db connection pool ....for example ...
hengsin: not for the first release. we might want to explore some of this area for the next major release after r1. it is huge effort to adopt those so that will have to wait.
hengsin: another area to looks into is the virgo osgi server. that might be a 1.1 thing
PedroRozo: great ... .... then we well stay with the current db connection pool for now...right ?
hengsin: yes, still c3p0
PedroRozo: good ...other than the OSGi changes, new zk version, functional enhancements, cleaning tasks and new modules (I have seen some contribution in progress) ... what else migth change for people like us that use to create customzation/extensins for adempiere ?
JanThielemann: posibility to sell plugins which everybody can use directly
tbayen: Is my impression right that it is still needed to use centralized ids to have a plugin shareable to the world. Why can't I connect records throughs uuids?
CarlosRuiz: no tbayen - you just need centralized IDs if your contribution is intended to go into trunk
CarlosRuiz: as extension you use 2pack
red1: Greetings from Jakarta.
tbayen: When I create some new tables they have IDs from the user numberspace. Do these IDs change when importing via 2pack?
tbayen: Hi red1!
red1: Shouldnt change
CarlosRuiz: yes - IDs change when importing 2pack - but UUIDs don't - so, as you suspect you can use UUIDs on your business logic if needed (but not recommended of course)
tbayen: why "of course"? Wouldn't it be better if I could use a uuid as a reference to another table?
PedroRozo: Could you guys remind us the centralized id guidelines/suggestions for new developments (url or thread) ... I use to have an adempeire forum url I guess.. but I lost it ...
CarlosRuiz: I meant "of course" about using UUIDs in your java code - not recommended - but you can do it if necessary
tbayen: If IDs are subject to change in the plugin deployment I think UUIDs may be better for everything.
CarlosRuiz: yep - 2pack copes with that in master-detail relationships
CarlosRuiz: PedroRozo -> http://www.adempiere.com/Centralized_ID_Management
PedroRozo: thanks .
CarlosRuiz: if you plan to contribute something for trunk - feel free to ask for your own password
tbayen: I have some contributions in my mind for my own business cases. Sooner or later these plugins will depend on each other. That means I have to connect their tables via UUID references only. But this is not as good supported as legacy ID references.
PedroRozo: changing the topics.. is there any group around the world working in POS (web) functionality for Idempeire ... I udnerstand posterita will be removed because doesn´t really work .....
CarlosRuiz: was removed
CarlosRuiz: nobody working on web POS openly AFAIK
CarlosRuiz: Thomas - there is no rule about "don't use central IDs for your extensions" :-) if you need you can use that too - but I think is better to design the extensions in a way that they're independent of IDs or UUIDs
PedroRozo: Good ..for a local customer we are creating a simplified POS (web) .. taking advantage of our POS experience with smartpos ... it si a ligth option to simplify the sales process to heavy public places .... that doesn´t want to ahve a full POS ... btu they want to sale quickly ... we will keep you posted about our progress .....
red1: I guess IDs change due to Sequence Check?
CarlosRuiz: that sounds great Pedro
red1: and the UUIDs are there to make them distinct in order to be packed in during the first place
red1: Edwin Ang and I met up with Armen Rizal today and we talked about the Light Manufacturing.
PedroRozo: currently we are working with adempeire 3.6.1 plus nov 2012 patches .. but it the transtion to Idempiere is not complex ....we migth have it for idempiere in a couple of months .... we will keep you posted .....
red1: They think it poses a problem in not backward to Old Bom and feel we need some sort of Libero Mfg (can i mention that here? :) )
red1: So i suggested them that we worked under Indonesia for a revamped Libero Mfg but as an OSGi plugin
CarlosRuiz: red1 - Edwin suggested to do that - but didn't answer
fcojvanninir: I would like to join that effort. I h
PedroRozo: Guys . talking about manufacturing .. is there anyone around the community working in a MRP2 (MRP + resource + sub-products and so on ) functionalty ? we have some potential projects (just starting the sales cicle) requesting that, and just want to be sure if someone else is working in something similar ....
CarlosRuiz: red1 -> I'm refering to this forum thread
CarlosRuiz: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/idempiere/OAwu_tsbuGU/discussion
red1: Yes Carlos, Edwin is here saying "We were too busy studying and testing iDempiere"
CarlosRuiz: not blaming - just pointing that such topic was raised and answered positively
hengsin: red1, unless you are already using Libero Mfg, there's no good reason why you should constraint yourself to libero mfg if you want to build a new full feature mfg extension.
red1: Edwin's team is basically a QA team here fully testing everyday since i was here. And just now April, the new girl found another bug related to RMA and she posted.
red1: hengsin: OK ,... Edwin has been trying to tell me the real MRP II concept and we still discussing.. (he is entering the chatroom now)
Edwin_Ang: hi everyone
CarlosRuiz: Hi Edwin_Ang
Edwin_Ang: hi CarlosRuiz
hengsin: Hi Edwin
Edwin_Ang: hi hengsin
red1: CarlosRuiz i pasted the link u gave above to Edwin_Ang's window
red1: my turn to take a bath here
fcojvanninir: Hello, for a while I thought about a new functionality for production... in great part because of its incompatability with how the industry I work for behaves. As a result of this tough process I came up with the tables that can be seen at the following link: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7_aX8GpCqwHTUZwa1g4Q0ZOa3c/edit?usp=sharing
fcojvanninir: One of the things I must disliked about the production of adempiere was the feel that a BOM is alot like a function from many products to one product.
Edwin_Ang: i see that red1 told u guys that i am working on a new mrp2 solution for our new project
Edwin_Ang: yes fcojvanninir, i think we should improve that
fcojvanninir: The other dislike I had was that the declaration of the material being produced was very awakard... (more on libero mfg than on the jorg janke production).
Edwin_Ang: can you describe how do you mean with awkward?
fcojvanninir: I would gladly join in on the effort Edwin. And I have been thinking alot about how to do it.. and well... I came up with a design but I really dont know hwo to code it so that it comes alive.
CarlosRuiz: nmicoud - checking again here IDEMPIERE-528 Determine Zoom window depending on record
Edwin_Ang: fcojvanninir: well we surely can work together
Edwin_Ang: you can share your design on the idempiere wiki and we discuss about it
Edwin_Ang: if there's more people it will be better
PedroRozo: Hi Edwin ...coudl you elaborate7sumamrize the main aspects/scope of your MRPII project, comapred with ligth manufacturing and the previous adempiere manufacturing ..?
nmicoud: CarlosRuiz, i'm listening
PedroRozo: we are nto still in development (but some customers are asking for that functionality), so we want to udnerstadn yoru approach and peraps in the future join forces ....
Edwin_Ang: well.. you can say i am thinking of a solution more similar to previous libero
Edwin_Ang: Forecast, Forecast-SO Consumption, MPS, RCCP, MRP, CRP, PAC
Edwin_Ang: but surely it is a huge work
Edwin_Ang: need to make priority and doing it in phases
fcojvanninir: What is your opinion of the mfg workflow using the same table as the adempiere workflow ?
Edwin_Ang: fcojvanninir: i don't like that
Edwin_Ang: :)
fcojvanninir: indeed, same here
Edwin_Ang: i think routing should use a different independent table
fcojvanninir: It also seems that the author is making an assumption that their exist a one to one relation between the products produced and the workflows...
Edwin_Ang: and also what i don't like about libero is
Edwin_Ang: they are assuming that once calculated, the mrp plan is final
Edwin_Ang: planner should have the privilege to have several plans
fcojvanninir: Ah, indeed
Edwin_Ang: and choose what's best for them
fcojvanninir: I havent seen that functionality but definately they should
Edwin_Ang: i am more of a production plan guy than production execution
Edwin_Ang: :D
Edwin_Ang: so please assist in production execution and costing
fcojvanninir: Ah.. well, that was what I was focusing on actually.. I imagined the declaration of what is being produced to be continuous and not so "discreet"
fcojvanninir: The spelling error was on purpose...
Edwin_Ang: fcojvanninir: you are from process manufacturing background?
fcojvanninir: well.. i mean that for a production the material produced is declared at many points and not just when it is finished.
Edwin_Ang: i am looking at your table structure document
fcojvanninir: Well, I got into this because of the seafood industry. In it you have a mix of process mfg and discrete mfg as this website calls it: http://www.technologyevaluation.com/
CarlosRuiz: MRP is the most changing thing on mfg
fcojvanninir: So i cant really answer affirmatively... in any case, I have a design and I would like to share it to later see it be produced (and learn more of the internals of adempiere in the process).
CarlosRuiz: indeed all the implementations I've seen on this kind of mfg they become "slaves of the MRP" - recalculating it periodically
CarlosRuiz: that's why TOC dropped the MRP and CRP
red1: I told Edwin_Ang about TOC today
Edwin_Ang: well, MRP II is surely not the solution for all
tbayen: Who or what is TOC?
CarlosRuiz: I think even those biggest are moving away from that static MRP
CarlosRuiz: http://fscavo.blogspot.com/2011/09/breakthrough-in-material-planning.html
Edwin_Ang: theory of constraints
CarlosRuiz: now they call it "demand driven MRP" which is basically recognizing what TOC said before :-)
Edwin_Ang: i need to refresh my mind
Edwin_Ang: it's been 10 years since the last time i read about TOC :D
PedroRozo: so I understand correctly from your comments.. as a Global dev. team and due to the complexity of these topics ...we don´t have anything in mind (design or develpment efforts) related with MRPII or future MRP standards within the short term (3-6 months) rigth ?
red1: I can comvert Libero within a month
red1: with some minor corrections
red1: as is where is basis
fcojvanninir: please change the "receipt/issue" form when you do...
red1: i will need help to understand exactly what is needed fcojvanninir so i count on your input when the time comes
red1: now i am still figuring out the enhanced HR and Edwin_Ang helped me a lot
Edwin_Ang: as-is libero is not production ready
red1: as u said MfgLight breaks old BOM, you better answer what u discussed with Carlos on it
CarlosRuiz: no red1 - mfglight breaks libero BOM - and restores the old JJ original BOM
tbayen: hengsin, when using idempiere on a nexus 7 or nexus 10 tablet do you prefer chrome or firefox?
red1: Hi trifon, will u be coming to our idempiere conference?
red1: chrome
red1: :)
tbayen: Some weeks ago he mentioned to try firefox. But I saw some improvements in the commit list and just wanted to ask.
Edwin_Ang: is there any erp system with a working TOC solution?
red1: When i was in Ecuador, Gustavo there claimed they have one integrated to Adempiere
hengsin: tbayen, I have been making changes to make it works good on chrome. it should work better on chrome now
tbayen: On the long run it will be better to support a platform's standard browser. I will tell my Salesmen to use chrome. Thanks!
hengsin: there's gesture support too. swipe left to collapsed the left panel, right to collapsed the right panel and down to collapsed the detail tab
hengsin: for the tabs, you can swipe left/close on the tab label to close it. for record navigation, swipe left/right on the toolbar+breadcrumb area for next and previous record. swipe down to goes to detail tab and swipe up to goes to parent tab.
JanThielemann: have you noticed that you get a duplicated key error when you try to change something in Organization Info?
JanThielemann: i tried with superuser and system role
JanThielemann: seems like it doesn't update the changes but tries to insert a second ad_orginfo :/
CarlosRuiz: which org?
hengsin: Jan, please create a jira ticket for that, I don't think that have been reported before.
tbayen: hengsin, is this documented somewhere?
CarlosRuiz: ah - I see - yes, usually in UI you cannot changes records with zero ID - we fixed that - but this orginfo table is special - it has a foreign key id=zero - so seems like the code still cannot cope with that
JanThielemann: should i create a ticket anyway?
CarlosRuiz: yes please
hengsin: tbayen, no, not at the moment.
CarlosRuiz: that must happen with all tables children of a zero ID without own ID
PedroRozo: curious question about your tablet topics .... how tablet friendly is (will be) idempiere . ? do we expect to have a support for chrome browsers .... just for a subset of the fucntionality (which one)... what is your vision about it hengsin?...
hengsin: at the moment, we just try to make it more usable on tablet devices where possible by the current framework and zk. no plan yet for the longer term.
hengsin: it is usable now on chrome for android. not great but usable.
tbayen: From my view hengsin is doing a great job making the idempiere zk run on tablets. This should be the main effort because it collects forces to one place. SAid that I am interested in creating a Android platform for special usecases and mobiles.
JanThielemann: i created the lookup factory: http://jira.idempiere.com/browse/IDEMPIERE-694
JanThielemann: workes well for me
JanThielemann: maybe you have to remove the image4j.jar :>
JanThielemann: (from the manifest=
hengsin: image4j ? what's that for ?
JanThielemann: it's from my icon feature
PedroRozo: tahnk for the calrification Hengsin & thomas .....that is good to know --- we will try to sync our small mobile efforts in the same direction ..(target: android as well)
tbayen: Hi Jens!
jmpiloq: Hi tbayen
Edwin_Ang: anyone still interested in production planning discussion? :D
Edwin_Ang: i've refreshed a bit about TOC
Edwin_Ang: it is a concept
Edwin_Ang: but i think it should not be replacing MRP 2
tbayen: jmpiloq, I see you will talk on the conference. :-)
PedroRozo: I would suggest to open a thread in the google group to take about these production topics.. to capture all these details i 1 place and to share requirements, progress and people interested .. to evaluate pros/cons and perhaps define a strategy. don´t you ?
Edwin_Ang: i think a page in the idempiere wiki would be better
Edwin_Ang: a thread will get buried in time
Edwin_Ang: i'll start one so everyone can jump in and share their thoughts
CarlosRuiz: Edwin_Ang, TOC is not a concept - is a methodology to manage manufacturing - very different than MRP
CarlosRuiz: when I pushed so much that libero mfg must not be part of trunk is because there are many ways to do mfg
PedroRozo: great ... thanks Edwin ..
CarlosRuiz: TOC - Lean - MRP - MRP2
Edwin_Ang: i agree
Edwin_Ang: add kanban into it
CarlosRuiz: so - what I think is that mfg must be an extension - and there can be many extensions
Edwin_Ang: no single fix for all
Edwin_Ang: yes.. i agree with you
Edwin_Ang: so this MRP 2 solution will be developed as extension
CarlosRuiz: exactly - and my hope is that we'll have also a TOC extension - and hopefully a Lean extension - and so on
Edwin_Ang: do you happen to have a material / resource on how to calculate the supply based on TOC
CarlosRuiz: most of the raw material is managed using buffer management instead of mrp
CarlosRuiz: we implemented TOC buffer management as an extension to the replenishment process - is running pretty well - I already had the approval from the customer to contribute it as extension - but haven't find the time
Edwin_Ang: so we just calculate the usage rate for each raw materials?
Edwin_Ang: but then you are not generating "make" recommendation right?
Edwin_Ang: that converts into manufacturing orders
JanThielemann: is there a way to add custom menu entries?
CarlosRuiz: yes - buffer management is a methodology to avoid inventory breaks - it recalculates the required stock based on statistics
CarlosRuiz: what do you mean with "make" recommendation?
tbayen: JanThielemann, I don't think so. But if you want to find a way to do it you should see at IDEMPIERE-234 and how it works for Toobarbuttons. (And we should implement this all for Swing...)
JanThielemann: Aren't toolbar buttons already implemented in swing, tbayen?
CarlosRuiz: nmicoud, almost done with the integration of your zoom condition - will try to test it later - and if everything works fine - then try to implement it on zk too
CarlosRuiz: thanks for your contribution
Edwin_Ang: i mean MRP produce two recommendation: "buy" and "make"
tbayen: Toolbar buttons in swing are not free configurable.
Edwin_Ang: "buy" transforms into purchase requisition
tbayen: (or I missed an improvement...)
Edwin_Ang: "make" transforms into production order
CarlosRuiz: ah yes - is the same
CarlosRuiz: replenishment can ask for buy or make - but is not based on the "plan" - but on min/max stocks
CarlosRuiz: bozhd is the TOC expert (Gustavo Vega from Ecuador)
Edwin_Ang: so we determine min/max for WIP too?
CarlosRuiz: I need to move away for a while - but please feel free to keep the meeting about mfg and TOC - I'll record all this interesting meeting on minutes as usual - thanks a lot
tbayen: bye
Edwin_Ang: bye
CarlosRuiz: do you mean intermediate materials - yes I think is managed with buffer management too using min/max stock - but Gustavo can answer that better
CarlosRuiz: ah - Gustavo just told me is having problems writing on this IRC :-(
Edwin_Ang: too bad
Edwin_Ang: i'll open a thread in google groups for brainstorming then
bozhd: Hello all,
Edwin_Ang: everyone can share their thoughts there
Edwin_Ang: hi bozhd
bozhd: sorry , i'm a litlle bit late for a meeting
bozhd: answering the cuestion !
bozhd: in TOC There's not min /max
bozhd: there ate a dinamic use of inventory
bozhd: based in buffer Management !!
bozhd: [BM}
bozhd: if you need more information I can to public a video about this in this week
bozhd: there are 3 zones
bozhd: 1/3 para of appropriate size of each product
bozhd: those are changing according all plants requirements
Edwin_Ang: so do you still need BOM and routing?
bozhd: the supply of materials or plant output to the reset time + products make an algorithm that creates a dynamic BM
bozhd: yes ! partial BOM
bozhd: only those are in fully variable cost
Edwin_Ang: what production environment do you think suitable for this?
PedroRozo: I hava to run to another meeting ... I will stay tuned in the google groups and hope to attend these chat more frequently ... thanks eveyone for your feedback ....have a good day ...
Edwin_Ang: bye PedroRozo
bozhd: bye Pedro
bozhd: we need proportional quantities to the product and those will represent 80% of this
bozhd: settings locations, plants, workplaces and resources (machines)
bozhd: aswering abou enviroment
bozhd: is necessary to take a view al resources
bozhd: all
bozhd: because we need to find the bottleneck
bozhd: an the WIP
bozhd: in eveery resource
bozhd: This gives us the plant speed
bozhd: that we need to coordinate all Producto orders
Edwin_Ang: do you have any books or materials that i can study?
bozhd: what exactly do you need ?, only for MTO, MTS?
Edwin_Ang: MTO and MTS will be a good start
bozhd: first is googo to underestan this
Edwin_Ang: i think it's better for me to study it first before we discuss
bozhd: http://www.toc.tv/?partner=&id=428&utm_campaign=
bozhd: this is a video about BM
bozhd: http://www.toc.tv/TV/video.php?id=333#.UTdq-Rzh80g
bozhd: this is about Priority
bozhd: Iḿ finishing to publish information about TOC MFG an example in this week
bozhd: send you or put in the next IRC documentation about it
bozhd: concepts
bozhd: and ours client experience
bozhd: sorry but Carlos said me abou the theme of IRC 20 min ago
Edwin_Ang: you can put it in idempiere wiki or post the link in google groups
bozhd: of course, said me where
Edwin_Ang: it's ok.. the topic is not planned
Edwin_Ang: have you joined the idempiere google groups?
bozhd: I dont follow at moment
bozhd: but today I'll check
bozhd: There is a place where do you begin to publish about MFG?
bozhd: could you give me a link?
Edwin_Ang: i've opened a thread here
Edwin_Ang: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/idempiere/hQrsN59Ne_o
Edwin_Ang: lets put everything we have there and discuss
Edwin_Ang: when we have some conclusions we can put it in the wiki
bozhd: ok
JanThielemann: got to go, see you tomorrow
JanThielemann: bye
Edwin_Ang: and pardon me
Edwin_Ang: i have to go now
Edwin_Ang: it's already midnite here
bozhd: My apologies but I have to let you stay in place pending the necessary information for a better understanding of TOC for MTO and MTS
bozhd: bye all
Edwin_Ang: bye